Sojourners: Thank you for meeting us. Thank you for the work that you’ve been doing. It’s not easy to take that position as Archbishop of Cape Town; it’s a very significant role, not only in the Anglican Church, but in the worldwide view of the Church, and for how many years now? Almost 8 years now? Nine years?
Ndungane: Nine years.
Sojourners: You’ve been doing an excellent job.
Ndungane: Thank you! Thank you. Flattery won’t get you anywhere.
Sojourners: I do want to start with that. I want to start with thanking you. I really appreciate it. The first question is to get you to reflect with us about the experience of being in Selma, Alabama, on the 40th anniversary of Bloody Sunday—and what that incident meant in the American consciousness, in terms of the Civil Rights Movement. But also at that time, 40 years ago, you were in prison on Robben Island. You spent 3 years in prison for your political activities to conscientiousize people about Apartheid. And though you came from a strongly Christian family, I think that experience on Robben Island was perhaps a point of adult conversion for you.
Ndungane: Well, I think that it was a very moving experience to be in Selma this past Sunday. And just to recall it, to take it in—that 40 years ago to the day, people walked on that bridge and then were confronted—people on a nonviolent march were confronted by violence—and it brought the memories back in terms of where we’ve been in South Africa, in terms of protest politics. But of course the joy of it all was that activities like that, at the end of the day, do bring joy. And justice in the end gets done. So we thank God for all those heroes and heroines for the struggle for justice in this country. And just as I was walking there, with some 10,000 people, I was actually surprised by the number of South Africans I met there who had come to be part of that. Kind of a solidarity march because we have been there before. And to say that the world today is suffering some other kind of injustice. There’s a sense in which Apartheid divided us in the country. With it you had a few people who were governing the country—governing the minority—with resources lopsided to meet the needs of the minority while the majority was suffering. I juxtaposed it to what President Mandela called the "present-day apartheid" where you have quite a few in the world who are dominating the affairs of the world and the developed world, and within that few people within the developed world you have the super-rich amidst desperate poverty. And that’s a new kind of injustice—a new kind of apartheid.
I think that what went through my mind is that we as a global community are in another kind of struggle, whereby we have got to do something about poverty. In the first instance I think it is not just only morally wrong, but it is sinful that in a world in which there’s been so much prosperity because of the globalization, the resources—and the talents and skills that God has given us—that nevertheless we find this divide between the super-rich, the people with a lot of resources in the developing world, and yet so many people go hungry everyday. Eight-hundred fifty-two million people go hungry every day in a world in which there’s surplus. In a world in which economists tell us it doesn’t have to be like this.
And we have, secondly, in our world, people are actually trapped in a cycle of violence, in a cycle of poverty. I hear people asking questions that, "Well, if you’re working hard, then you can improve your condition." That’s putting it too simply. Because if you’re born in Darfur or in Somalia you can’t help yourself. You’re trapped in that cycle of poverty. And so it’s up to us to help liberate those people who are trapped in that cycle of poverty. And I think the third thing, in terms of the justice struggles of our day, is it’s a fundamental human right for every human being created in God’s image to have what is basic for human dignity, such as access to food, to shelter, to clothing, to clean running water, to health care, to education.
Again, it’s not just wrong and immoral, but very sinful that in an information age we have 101 million school-age children who can’t go to school, 65 million of them girls, in a world in which we can make a difference. And so we have a new struggle before us. I think the Millennium Development Goals give us an entry point for us to galvanize, to make a better world for all. As you know, five years ago the world leaders came together and said that we need to do something about global poverty and set up those goals. Five years down the line we have not done well at all. And so in a sense, 2005 is a kairos year, a critical year, for us to set up some manageable, attainable goals for 2015.
Sojourners: As you’ve alluded, I think you are a "patron" of the Micah Challenge: you helped launch it at the UN; you certainly worked within the Anglican Church on economic issues, on trade issues; part of your work on this tour is with Episcopalians for Global Reconciliation, which is also working on the Millennium Development Goals. Talk a little bit about some of those organizations and what are some of the best practices that you see in terms of church work addressing Millennium Development Goals, addressing global poverty issues.
Ndungane: Yes. I think there’s a sense in which there’s goodness in people and that generally the impression I am gathering is that people want justice in the world. And that these are efforts by people to galvanize people together so that we can make a better world for all. I think the Episcopalians for Global Reconciliation arose last year out of our Atlantic Conference resolution.
We did have resolutions at Atlantic conference other than the one [on ordination of a gay priest.] One of these had to do with international debt—where we’re saying that we have to challenge the developed nations to be true to the comma 7 percent they pledged themselves. I think that arose out of the Brandt Commission—the North-South commission of the 1980s. And it said that we cannot challenge governments without challenging ourselves. And then it said that churches themselves in terms of their diocesan and national budget should pledge comma 7 percent of their income towards development programs. Arising out of that I think the presiding bishop had a forum at the last general convention and this particular network came into being consisting of economists—lay economists—theologians, lawyers, attorneys, you name them—everybody is in there and seeking to galvanize the Christian voice amongst Episcopalians to be aware of the Millennium Development Goals. And I think that is what is happening. I’ve been part of that program in the U.S.
I was part of the launch of the Micah Challenge, of which I’m a patron. And the Micah Challenge draws together up to 260 not-for-profit organizations worldwide and some 3 million churches from the World Evangelical Alliance. And the whole objective again is to galvanize a Christian voice—to say that we want a better world for all. And using what the prophet Micah says in Micah 6, chapter 8: "What does God want you to do? Only this," says the Jerusalem Bible. "To love kindness, to walk humbly with your God, and to do justice." And so it’s galvanizing people in terms of that particular aspect. And people can login and sign-on on the website.
There’s another movement, I think, recently launched in England, which is "Make Poverty History." And part of this is a chance to galvanize a Christian voice so that we can be a solid block in pushing the goals. You see, politicians are very nice people. They like to make statements. But [they are] not very good at implementation. And I think it’s Claire Short who said that, "Faith leaders, you have got a responsibility to push us as politicians." And she was saying that we can deal with students when they are protesting, but you can’t deal with mother’s unions or women’s groups when they knock on our doors. So really we’re that sense of power. And of course we know that power from below does put pressure on politicians.
We know that 5 million children die each year to malnutrition. We know that this year 3 million people will die of AIDS. We know that twice the number of people die daily than those who died on September 11 on HIV/AIDS-related diseases. We know that this year 2 million people will die of TB. We know that 1 million people will die of malaria and 80 percent of them children. We know that, in terms of people living with AIDS, bare though that is, in terms of the whole the country of South Africa, the majority of them are girls between the ages of 15-24. That’s bad enough in terms of our future. And as you know, women are the backbone of society.
In particular, in rural areas they’re the economic hub. And what does it say when such a large number of young women conduct HIV/AIDS? And of course, my heart goes out to children because I’ve just learnt that children are the victims. They suffer in terms of medication isn’t available because they have no voice. So what these networks are doing is to be the voice of the voiceless. And also I think what these networks are doing are saying, we know that statistics are mind-boggling. They sometimes bamboozle us, like rabbits in front of car headlights. But I think that if you can put a name and a face to one of those people—if you think that in 2003 we had 15 million AIDS orphans and 12 million of them being in sub-Saharan Africa.
If in one moment you were to think about that AIDS orphan being your beloved granddaughter, or that child who can’t go to school being your beloved grandson, then you begin to understand how painful that situation is. And when you think about AIDS orphans—and researchers tell us that it’s still, this disease is yet to peak—what’s going to happen when those children become parents who have never had the security of a stable home. Who have never had the values of family life. And so there’s a lot for us to do. And so that’s why it’s important for us to galvanize, to mobilize for the realization of these Goals, whose major objective is to end hunger and disease.
Sojourners: You mentioned the questions about AIDS in Africa, and specifically how it affects women. What is the Anglican Church doing to address AIDS in South Africa? What kinds of programs do you have in place? And how do you also in that process challenge stereotypical roles? Are you able to challenge men on those issues as well as women who are strongly affected? And how do you thin the Church in the West can best help the African Church on the question of HIV/AIDS?
Ndungane: Well, first of all, let’s start with the Church and its false theology. A false theology which links sex with sin, with guilt and punishment. We are very bad on sex, you know. And we just think that it’s the worst sin ever. There have been evangelists—and there still are; they have not stopped coming to Africa, actually—these televangelists who say that people who contract HIV/AIDS have asked it upon themselves. It’s a punishment from God.
I ask you, and I ask them, how can a woman who is faithful to her husband say she has asked it upon herself when she has an unfaithful partner? Because statistics tell us that the majority of women who are positive are married, have been–are faithful women to their partners. And how can women in a marriage situation apply this ABC thing. You can’t abstain in marriage! And being faithful—they are faithful, they have got unfaithful partners. They can’t negotiate on condoms because in some cultural settings—and in most sub-Saharan Africa—the man dominates households and they even go to the bedroom to—they even dominate in the bedroom. And if women can’t conform they apply financial sanctions. So we have got to stop the false theology and have begun to address them by saying that we are shouting from our rooftops that HIV and AIDS is not a punishment from God. It is a disease like any other disease that is manageable, that is preventable, and that is treatable. That’s the first lesson that we are saying. We are saying that we need to give loving care and support to people living with AIDS.
We’ve got programs that are engaged in terms of wellness programs. We’re engaged in addressing men, in giving respect and dignity to women. I think…for the past 4 year I’ve led marches—men’s marches—in which to say, "Real men don’t abuse women. Real men respect the dignity of women. And we call on men to respect their wives, their sisters, their daughters, their mothers." And one of the joys of these marches is that we saw some boys also joining in. And the message is getting on. So those are some of the initiatives we’ve got. And in our church we’ve got two programs. One is called Building a Foundation. It’s giving capacity to dioceses to engage meaningfully, holistically in the ministry of HIV and AIDS.
We’ve just won a Petford grant where we are aiming at education. We want to target children at primary schools and to target those children that are negative to remain negative. Because our major objective is a generation without AIDS. And so we’re engaged in all of these programs. One of my dreams, of course, is to have one-stop healthcare centers in every parish—especially in the rural areas where clinics are very far from where people…it is not easily accessible. And a one-stop healthcare center where people can get voluntary counseling and testing where people can feel supported, where people can get nutrition, and get medication and so on and so forth. That’s my dream. And we have infrastructure because churches are found almost in every village and we are one institution in Africa which has a sitting audience at least once a week. And so we have it in ourselves: the ability to reach out to people. And so what we need is to strengthen the capacity of churches to do that. And there are so many heroes and heroines who are engaged in this ministry.
For example, in a visitation among the parishes I came across a group of retired nursing sisters who decided to have—you know these shipping containers?—use it as a sort of consultancy room where they do voluntary counseling and testing, education, they even have a nutrition program. They managed to convince their vestry, which is not a very easy thing to do, to set aside a piece of land in the church property so that they can grow vegetables. Those vegetables are given to people living with AIDS. So you find all those initiatives. And I think that that’s a kind of portal that we need to have, and we can relate to clinics and all those kinds of things.
In another parish I found some women who are concerned that in terms of the nutritional supplies that they were getting in a clinic. Some other people were loathe to go there because there’s a stigma attached. So if you come to a church hall and you receive a parcel, it is not known what your condition is. So there are those initiatives that are very much appreciated.
Sojourners: You were instrumental, I think, in helping Gordon Brown understand a little bit more about the mechanics of global poverty and put a face on it for him. And he’s been a strong leader in the U.K. to try to bring some changes about from the top of the international financial institutions. Is there anyone you know of in the United States, in the administration, or anyone who you feel like has that same understanding—who’s able to work at the top levels to bring about some substantial change?
Ndungane: Well, I think two things about that is that in 1998 I was part of a delegation of bishops—led a delegation of bishops—to meet with Gordon Brown. And we talked about that. And thank God that he’s moved on that. I’m saying that he wasn’t convinced then. But he has become very visible and very vocal. And I think his visit to Africa—he won’t be the same again. And I think we have got potential in the U.S., I think—now, who was this treasurer secretary? Was it Paul O’Neil? I can’t remember now. The one who went with Bono…. And when he saw for himself he was transformed.
I would like to invite John Snow to come on my four-by-four and visit Africa and see these AIDS orphans. And I think that people become champions once they come face-to-face with the real faces of poverty and suffering and hunger. I mean, Oprah tells a story that she went as a guest of Nelson Mandela and she went to this school. And she was just bowled over—she wept when she saw what is happening and made a commitment to that. And so I think I cannot name someone in the administration—I’m not very much knowledgeable about who’s who. But I think that people should hear that. And it’s not that we are asking too much really in all these things. These things are possible. These Goals are realizable. It just needs the political will to do that.
If you think that world community this year will spend close to a trillion dollars on armaments—all right? And those people can do sums. They can say, four-and-a-half days of that spending will guarantee universal primary education for all. You’re talking about 6 billion dollars a year. For ten years, that’s 60 billion. And it will meet that criteria. And the world will be a better place. Because if you have girls going to school, they will get jobs, they will make sure there’s food on the table. Notice I say ‘girls.’ Because men are useless in the majority of times. I’d rather give my money to women’s organizations than to men’s organizations. That’s my prejudice. And if you think again, if you put 24 billion dollars a year to fast-track the goal that deals with world hunger, by 2015 we’ll reach that goal. And that is possible because the developed world is spending 300 billion dollars on domestic agriculture.
I can’t easily think about our luxuries. Someone was telling me that people in this country spend something like 9 billion dollars on cosmetics. And I’m not saying that you should not look beautiful, not do those things. But you know, we can cut down and make sure that those people—especially children, I’ve got a soft spot on children because they didn’t ask to be in this world. We adults brought them to this world to make a difference in terms of cutting our luxuries. I think it was Bill Clinton who said in Davos one year that we needed to have a citizen’s humanitarian fund to help alongside what we are asking governments. Because as individuals we have a spare dollar here and there, and we can make a difference in terms of people’s lives.
Sojourners: Part of the justice mission of the Christian tradition is to make sure that there are systems in place to provide for people physically. And a lot of what we’ve been talking about is how the church can be a moral voice for a just economy so that people can live with dignity. When people are able to move in that direction where they have dignity in their lives, what does that do to their spiritual understanding? What does that do to their connection with God?
Ndungane: I think in the first place they feel themselves proud. And they feel they can stand up with dignity and be able to be the kind of human beings that God wants them to be and be fully human. I think they’ll learn to appreciate the world more and more. They’ll feel that they have a stake in the world, and in fact, it would be a better world for all.
We tend to think, when we talk about security, more armaments, more metals. Every time I go through the airports here, I’m always the one for which it goes S-S-S-S, and then I have to be checked thoroughly. One security lady was checking me; she wanted me to take off my belt. So I said, "What if my pants fall?" She said, "I don’t like your jokes!" So I said, this is serious business.
But I mean, the drill that you go through: take off your shoes… And what’s so surprising to me—I’ve never seen Americans so docile. They ought to stand up for their rights! I mean, everybody’s so in docility! Take off the shoes, take off the belt, take off coats, I have to take off my cross. Show the ticket. It’s kind of a cycle—what you call it? that we made to—in the name of security. I mean, I would be stupid if I had weapons that couldn’t go though those metal detectors. I would have another way of doing it. But nevertheless, the stupidity that we have got into and the resources we are spending on that!
But of course, the irony of it all is that, I don’t know what had happened actually when I was leaving National Airport. The thing [that makes a beeping sound] went like that, and everybody just came. And I said, "Oh, my God! I’m going to be locked up here." But they went to another machine so everything went well. But, you see, if we invested in people, in terms of human security, and if people were happy in this world, people would not be pliable to listen to people with evil intents.
I think that our major objective is to eliminate conditions that enable such deadly fanaticism that caused the 9-11. To eliminate conditions where young children, girls and boys, volunteer to be suicide bombers. And I think that if people know they have got something to live for, and they have pride, they have dignity, they are respected, those kinds of situations will disappear. And people will live happy forever. So we have a moral responsibility to make God’s world a just world—a world where everybody has what’s necessary for human dignity.
Sojourners: The Episcopal Church and the World Anglican Communion has come up recently because of polity issues particularly around the ordaining of a bishop in the US Episcopal conference who has outwardly said that he was gay. This has caused a split to a certain extent with some of the African churches. How do you answer people who come up to you and say, "What does this mean? What is the Church’s position? How do we know what to think? Should we divide from the U.S. churches?" How do you offer people a pastoral response to some of those larger issues?
Ndungane: Well, I think the word ‘split’ is unfortunate. I don’t think they’re split. I think there’s division of opinion. And I think there exists an impaired relationship in the communion anyway in the sense that you get a church like the Church of England, for instance. They don’t consecrate women as bishops. And you get some churches in this communion who don’t have women priests. I’m not sure whether…I don’t know which provinces in Africa have women priests other than our province. I’m not quite sure about that. But there are provinces that don’t have women priests. So in a sense, there is impaired relationship in our communion.
On this particular issue, it’s two things really. There’s the governance issue, which people fail to understand. And governance issues are that each of our provinces is autonomous in terms of making decisions. Jim Robinson was elected, consecrated and confirmed according to the constitution and canons of the Episcopal Church in the United States. And so that is the point. So everything was overboard in that sense. And in any church there are minorities who get disenchanted. And in this case they are minorities in this country who got disenchanted and fortunately enlisted support and found a fertile ground with some of our brothers in Africa and in Southeast Asia. And I think that is where things are read, and it’s the…where people are vocal and visible are the primates. But the Church is not the archbishops. The church of God is more than archbishops. It’s bishops, priests and lay people. Certainly there are people who take different views on these issues.
In terms of my church in southern Africa, it’s a joy to be a member of the body of Christ in southern Africa. We’re a church that was born in conflict. Conflict between the first bishop of Capetown, Gray, and the bishop of Natal, Kolansa. And in fact, we’re the cause of the first Lambeth conference in 1867. And when a church which, over the centuries, have lived in difference and otherness and some differences have been very sharp if you think about the debate we had over women priests, the debate we have over issues of racism because racism was legalized in our country and obviously the Church was tainted and affected. And there are those people who are pretty benefited from the Apartheid structures and are very much comfortable. And we had very sharp debates on race issues and racism in the Church.
We had very sharp debates on military chaplains, those people who supported the military power of Apartheid and those of us who supported liberation movements. And so with all those kinds of differences—differences on the sanctions! Desmond Tutu tells the story that if people’s eyes could kill you, he would have been dead many times! But in spite of all words, we have come together. All right? And we have grown in that mode. And even in the intensity of the debates on the ordination of women it was heartwarming to see one of the bishops who was very much against women’s ordination who led at eucharist with a woman priest. And I need to say this story again that we’ll look at our church in other places saying that, "Shame."
You see when the first black bishops came in South Africa, the white people, white congregations, who did not want ministrations of black bishops. Can you imagine if we had followed what has been said here—what do you call these things? Flying bishops, or whatever—would have had black congregations, white congregations, and if another congregation did not like me because I spoke Xhosa, said "I don’t want a Xhosa bishop, I want a Sutu bishop." But God is great. Because when Bishop Alphaeus Zulu, the first black Diocesan bishop became bishop of Zululand, one congregation, which is white, did not want him to come and confirm their polities. They appealed to the bishop next door, Bishop of Natal. And the bishop said, "You’ve got a bishop up there. Stay with him." And the House of Bishops sort of affirmed that. And the end result is that that parish actually ended up loving Bishop Alphaeus the best.
So sometimes we bend backwards and forwards in terms of accommodating minorities. And I think that we have to have a loving way of accommodation, and a loving way of saying "These are the structures we have created for making decisions. If you don’t like it, come back and argue your point. Improve your argument. Don’t shout through the Internet and the media. Improve your argument and go to the convention and say, "Let’s change that" and not sink to make whatcha-call-it? Because you’ve got those instruments. Again, I say I’m delighted to be a member of the Church of Southern Africa.
For instance, there was this one dean who said he will fight to the drop of his blood, the last ounce of blood in his veins, that there are no women priests. And if that were to happen, he would leave the church. And as the vote was announced in Synod and the majority, far in extent of two-thirds, he was gracious enough to go the microphone and say, "I’m a child of this Church. The Church has spoken and so I will abide." And I think that people have got to learn that we have created structures by which we try to discern the mind of God. And if you lose on a debate, though luck. Try and improve your debate and use the instruments within your church to change whatever you want to change.
Mobilization of this nature is actually evil. I mean, we say that evil in at the primates meeting. It is no secret that some of our number did not go to communion. Now, for me, that’s the worst thing to happen. Because communion: we are gathering at the table of the Lord with the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s not how holy I am, but it’s the Lord Jesus Christ. If we cannot find ourselves around a common table, then we have got to ask ourselves. That’s why I said this is of the devil, actually. And we have got to exorcize the devil. And my spiritual director said to me quite early on in my ministry, "Never have truck with evil. Identify evil and pray for grace." When that took place that to me was just the bottom line. I said ‘there’s something evil about this.’ I mean, in my church in southern Africa—I mentioned the divisions—there was never an issue about the Eucharist. Instead, that’s where we found one another.
We may have had hot debates in the chamber, but when we humbled ourselves at the feet of Jesus around that communion table, I could go to them and say, "I’m sorry for that word I spoke. I was maybe emotionally charged." We could square up because the Lord of the Church has spoken to us. Even when we had this hot division in terms of women priests, there was never an issue of communion. Initially we had a conscience clause that if a woman priest was going to be celebrating, it was incumbent on us to make that publicly known so that those who felt they could not receive at the hand of a woman would make another Eucharist. But there was a Eucharist.
Thank God that I think three or four years down the line, that conscience clause, people said, "What’s the fuss?" And people got ‘round to that. So what I’m saying is that there’s a lot that people have got to learn. And I said to myself, I said, "This is one of the most difficult primates meetings that we’ve ever had." I said it was dealing with standard 6 or standard 7 boys throwing their toys out of court. I would understand that. But you can’t use God’s sacrament to push your agenda. And that’s bad! You don’t do that in God’s church. You don’t manipulate the spin that’s being sent around here to confuse people’s minds. People must learn to improve their arguments and not engage in machinations and even boycott the Lord’s table to prove their point.
Sojourners: The last question is what gives you hope, personally. What is the unique gift that you think the African Church brings to the worldwide body of Christ?
Ndungane: What gives me hope is because we worship a God of hope. We worship a God of love. We worship a merciful God, and a compassionate God. We worship an inclusive God—a God who says, "There are not aliens in my house." We worship a God who is trinity, unity and diversity: A God who calls us to model our lives on the lives of the trinity. And we worship a God who, through His grace, is able to transform people’s minds and hearts. We worship a God, in the words of one of my predecessors, Joost De Blank, who says that even in the confusion of our minds God still works his pebbles out. And above all, we worship a God who has overcome the world, and therefore, in all these circumstances of this world, we will overcome. And so that’s what gives me hope. And so I said, don’t take the cue by what we primates said. We’re just one segment of the Church. The Church is the body of Christ in Africa. It’s the body of Christ. And there’s a giftedness in terms of the African Church, in terms of its warmth, in terms of its vitality, in terms of its own spirituality. And so the whole concept of Ubuntu, which is about understanding that "I am because we are"—a kind of high doctrine of humanity which is a kind of a foundation of the notion of koinonia and belonging together. And so that’s what gives me hope.
But people are able at the end of the day to come and say "I’m sorry." And I think if there’s anything that South Africa’s experience show to the world, is how we can be reconciled. Everybody thought that we were going to end up in a bloodbath. But in God’s scheme of things, we managed to get beyond the brink to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, using the model of restorative justice where we’re to cut out our losses and say, "Look, for the greater good of the country and the people," those people who committed gross atrocities and made a public depravations would get amnesty. And those who came forward to testify would get reparations. That is the way forward.
That is a proposition I made in my own submission: that if secular powers put into full use the notion of restorative justice, as you have seen in South Africa, as you are seeing in Sudan, as you are seeing in Palestine and Israel, how much more on us whose Lord, Lord of his Church, died so that we may be reconciled, not only to God, but with one another? And that we are His ambassadors. And in the words of 2 Corinthians 5:18 we have been given this ministry of reconciliation. Therefore, the leadership of this Anglican Church needs to hear those words loud and clear. And I’m preaching to the primates now—and to the hangers-on who are sowing these evil intents—that the Lord of the Church calls His Church to reconciliation. If you have been offended by whatever is happening in church, go to your brother and sister and say "You have affronted me" and seek ways of reconciling those, and not go about in the Internet and confuse people of God who want to go on with their lives and also have those uncomfortable words they say about people of homosexual orientation.
We worship a God of reconciliation. A God who, through Jesus Christ, through his death and resurrection, has reconciled us. And we are not called upon to spill our blood for reconciliation. Because Christ has done that for us. We are called to model our lives in what our Lord Jesus calls us to do and to become.
Sojourners: Thank you. That was wonderful, excellent.
South Africa’s Anglican Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane was interviewed March 8, 2005, in Washington, D.C.