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A Church Sanctuary for the Occupy Movement

It’s time to invite the Occupy Movement to church!

And Thanksgiving is the perfect occasion. Have some of the young protesters — the “99ers” as they’re becoming known — from this rapidly growing movement over for a big holiday dinner!

Our faith communities and organizations should swing their doors wide and greet the Occupiers with open arms, offering them a feast to say “thank you” for having the courage to raise the very religious and biblical issue of growing inequality in our society.

Concentrations of wealth and power, unfairness in our political process, the loss of opportunity — especially for the next generation — and the alarming rise of poverty in the world’s richest nation are all fundamental concerns for people of faith. So let’s invite the young occupiers into our churches and ministries for good conversation and a great meal.

If our mayors and police departments are making the Occupiers feel unwelcome, why don’t we welcome them to stay on our church property if they need someplace to go?

Open our church basements and parish halls as safe places to sleep — shelter and sanctuary as cold weather descends upon many of our cities.

It’s time both to embrace and engage this hopeful movement of young people who are articulating the underlying but often unexpressed feelings of a nation which, by a three-quarters majority, believes, with the protesters, that the economic structure of the country has become unfair and skewed to benefit the most wealthy.

These are gospel issues, and are therefore the business of the churches.

So let’s invite them to our Thanksgiving dinners all across the country, and have “table fellowship,” because that’s what church people do!

Bring them in out of the cold, and offer them the appreciation and warm hospitality of a thankful faith community. I’d imagine they must be tired of pizza by now and a turkey — or vegetarian — dinner with all the fixings is likely to attract a crowd (with vegan versions available, of course).

New York City’s Mayor Michael Bloomberg said he “takes full responsibility” for unleashing hundreds of his police in a highly militarized early Monday morning raid that evicted the young people encamped in Zuccotti Park. So let’s give him that responsibility.

Bloomberg is the poster child for the “1 percent.” He is the archetypal wealthy man who bought political power, and the uprising in his city to challenge what he himself stands for has made the mayor uncomfortable about the protests since the beginning.

That the protests in New York became the flagship of a global movement must be personally embarrassing for Bloomberg, and his clear signal that this movement for economic equity is not welcome in his city likely now will be mimicked by mayors and police chiefs around the country.

The Occupiers in New York already have returned to Zuccotti Park, but tensions and perpetual conflicts between their movement and city administrators and police will likely become the status quo dynamic in New York and across the nation.

The Occupy movement needs a sanctuary. And what better safe and welcome place could these young people find than with communities of faith?

As we provide that safe sanctuary for a new generation of protesters who dream of a better world, let us also engage them in the spirituality of the change they seek.

My experience with the young protesters in several cities suggests that they are open to that kind of conversation. Many have been studying other social movements where faith, spirituality, and moral sensibilities played a central role.

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Jesus is a popular guy among the thousands of Occupy sites around the world, and faith is a lively topic — even if religion is suspect as an institution of an unjust society.

So as the young protesters are made to feel unwelcome by the municipal authorities in cities around the country, let us make them feel very genuinely welcomed in our faith communities.

This could be a great opportunity for hospitality, for ministry, for solidarity, for faith conversation and, yes, for prophetic witness as churches and people of faith speak up for the economic justice that is at the heart of biblical faith and is an integral part of the gospel.

It’s also a way to connect the generations in the context of a community for people of all ages. Because all social movements inevitably generate tension and even outright conflict, they need safe space, places to rest and rejuvenate. They need sanctuary.

Offering that sanctuary to the Occupiers — at our tables, on our property, in our parish halls and church basements, and in our sanctuaries for the quiet prayer and reflection that every movement needs to sustain itself — could be the beginning of a powerful relationship between the faith community and the leaders of an emerging generation that is so clearly and passionately committed to creating a better world.

Jim Wallis is the author of Rediscovering Values: A Guide for Economic and Moral Recovery, and CEO of Sojourners. He blogs at www.godspolitics.com. Follow Jim on Twitter @JimWallis.

 

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by: UMCRevMom

11-17-2011 @ 2:10pm

Instead of Thanksgiving Dinner, we need to "throw our church doors open" and lead them to repentance.

by: eleanorstoneham...

11-17-2011 @ 2:26pm
in reply to: UMCRevMom

I went to the Occupy London tent city at St Pauls to talk to the protestors and was struck by what they stand for and how well organised and thoughtful the community was. There was plenty of sound debate, peace and love - and the point they make is very valid - in London they had plenty of public support - and they are in no way blocking visitors to St Pauls either. Thankyou for an excellent blog.As for repentance I think we should look for the planks in our own eyes first.

by: pagrsm

11-17-2011 @ 3:04pm
in reply to: eleanorstoneham...

I too was in London and witnessed this event.  The priests of St. Paul's and the Archbishop  of Canterbury and the Bishop of London all have had their different responses but it was a good and orderly debate.

Very interesting..  How about Trinity Church on Wall Street?

by: Red Elder

11-17-2011 @ 8:56pm
in reply to: UMCRevMom

You are correct. These are misguided souls. Violence, open sex, drugs and lawlessness is nothing to honor.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 11:57am
in reply to: UMCRevMom

Repentence for showing solidarity with the poor? For courageously calling attention to an unjust economy? For daring to want to call Wall Street to account? For refusing to worship the false idol of the unfettered market?

by: Red Elder

11-18-2011 @ 9:27pm
in reply to: paul

There is no unjust economy, just unjust people expecting something for nothing.  If there are any unjust 1 percenters, it's the professional athletes, especially in the NBA and NFL.  Unbelievable pay for playing games of entertainment.  They do not deserve their pay.  Or the Hollywood elite like Michael Moore who are paid outrageous sums for making films.  Talk about worshiping false idols.  The market is made up of companies, made up of ordinary people working for a living, paying their bills, providing jobs for others, and taxes so the poor can have money they haven't earned.  These OWS bums are freeloaders, or they couldn't spend so much time playing martyr in the park.  We should pray for their repentance, along with others who spark violence, unfettered sex and drugs, and covetousness.   

by: OccupyCincinnati

12-10-2011 @ 8:04pm
in reply to: Red Elder

That's what I've been saying but guys like kansasmennonite want to run me off the blog because he says that certainly, I'm not part of the Occpuy Movement because me ideas aren't radical enough.


While some small business owners and some wallstreet bankers are in the 1%, it is a small percentage.  But all professional athletes and Hollywood stars are in the 1%.  And creating jobs for others isn't always idolatry but ... we'll you've said it well with the athletes and Hollywood stars.


Just want you to know that not all of the Occupy crowd is doing free sex, drugs and property distruction.

by: recce1

11-21-2011 @ 2:19am
in reply to: paul

How about repentence for theft, destruction of private property, antisemitism, arson, assault, rape, murder, drug use, attacking reporters and police? As for worshipping false gods, do you think atheistic communism is good?

I'd agree that not all or even a majority of the OWS protesters are guilty of such conduct, but far too many are. Furthermore, you can't find such conduct being committed by the Tea Party Movement despite the bearing of false witness by many liberals, including the president's administration.

They're not showing solidarity with the poor, they're showing greed and class envy. How many have said they want a free meal ticket in life or that the government should confiscate the wealth of the productive?

By the way, the market isn't unfettered. It's rigged to favor crony capitalism. Also, socialism is responsible for the murder of hundreds of millions.

by: paul

11-22-2011 @ 3:33am
in reply to: recce1

Really? Why might you think I would favor atheistic communism? Or that I would defend socialism? As if those are the only alternatives to unregulated global finance capitalism. I think too many these days prefer atheistic Randian individualism. I think we need to honor and protect the common good.

Too many reporters are being attacked by police, from what I am seeing and hearing. " "How many have said they want a free meal ticket in life or that the government should confiscate the wealth of the productive?" None that I am aware of. Do you have a different answer?

by: eleanorstoneham...

11-17-2011 @ 2:25pm

I went to the Occupy London tent city at St Pauls to talk to the protestors and was struck by what they stand for and how well organised and thoughtful the community was. There was plenty of sound debate, peace and love - and the point they make is very valid - in London they had plenty of public support - and they are in no way blocking visitors to St Pauls either. Thankyou for an excellent blog.As for repentance I think we should look for the planks in our own eyes first.

by: Rifle

11-17-2011 @ 2:30pm

After you open the church doors be ready for them to defecate everywhere, insult everyone, steal from all and then blame you for the actions they took. Then they'll "occupy" the church and scream, do drugs, holler, assault each other, smell, attack cops and scream like stuck pigs when they get busted for it, threaten violence, do more drugs, complain they can't pay for the education they got, chant stupidly, and demonstrate that they have no grasp of math. The "99%"...really? I doubt if the whole "movement" and all it's supporters equal anything more than 5%. Look for Jim and his ilk to make excuses for them while telling fibs about what the Gospel says. I'll pray for your soul Jimbo.

by: Kevin_Wayne

11-17-2011 @ 3:13pm
in reply to: Rifle

Pray for yours, too. There's this thing about bearing false witness.

by: Maani

11-17-2011 @ 4:19pm
in reply to: Rifle

There are also the 11 precepts of Jesus' ministry: love, peace, forgiveness, compassion, humility, patience, charity, selflessness, service, justice and truth.  I see little of any of these in your response.  Instead, I see disdain, aggression, censure, arrogance, impatience, self-centeredness, injustice and propaganda.


Do we follow the same Christ?

by: recce1

11-21-2011 @ 2:24am
in reply to: Maani

Where is the aggression, censure, arrogance, impatience, self-centeredness, injustice and propaganda? Is it in calling provable widespread criminal and immoral conduct criminal and immoral? Do you find it unchristian to call sin sin?

Evidently you don't follow the Christ of the New Testament.

by: CherokeeStar

11-17-2011 @ 9:47pm
in reply to: Rifle

I'm new to this blog, but I made a point of reading the rules before registering and adding my comments.  "Rifle" seems to have completely disregarded these two rules:

I will express my disagreements with other community members' ideas without insulting, mocking, or slandering them personally. (Matthew 5:22)

I will not exaggerate others' beliefs nor make unfounded prejudicial assumptions based on labels, categories, or stereotypes. I will always extend the benefit of the doubt. (Ephesians 4:29)

 

From everything I've read, it appears to me that the people guilty of the bad behvior that Rifle references are in the minority among protesters, and frankly, I'm enough of a skeptic to wonder whether many of those behaving badly, including those guilty of violence, have been paid by opponents of the protests, perhaps by rich corporate interests or even by well-funded conservative political action groups (Dick Armey's FreedomWorks and their fake grassroots movements come to mind).  The 1% have a long history of using dishonorable tactics to push their agenda.

 

 

by: eleanorstoneham...

11-18-2011 @ 8:09am
in reply to: CherokeeStar

Well said CherokeeStar. I wandered amongst the tents in London and spoke to many of the protestors. They were all intelligent and serious young (and not so young sometimes) men and women who feel they have a serious point to make - as indeed they do. There were educated discussions going on in the Tent City University, plenty of good literature to read, or borrow at the Tent City University Library  (I donated my own book - one chapter hugely relevant to their cause) and saw only courtesy and peace. The site was clean, well ordered and peaceful (with plenty of portaloos and rubbish skips) and attracting much support and interest from the public. It is very sad that it has divided clergy in St Pauls, and I am even sadder to see the violence in the evictions in Manhattan - although it seems the Manhattan park site may not have been so well organised?

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:03pm
in reply to: eleanorstoneham...

The eviction in New York wasn't just violent, but it was needlessly destructive. Most of the books were destroyed, laptops were smashed, and I sure some people lost years of artwork and probably personal diaries and journals as well.

by: recce1

11-21-2011 @ 2:28am
in reply to: CherokeeStar

So do you find Maani's comments a violation as well? Aren't you resorting to false witness?

by: surferbob68

11-17-2011 @ 2:34pm

I believe that we not only should invite adherents of the Occupy movement to church but that we should also make a vigorous effort to witness to them.
From interviews I have seen on TV, it seems that the adherents of this movement are putting their trust in men and not in the Lord.
Although the ideology of the Occupy movement is not fixed at this date, I believe that the general direction of the movement can be a good thing for this country.
I am concerned that if this movement becomes violent, many undesireable effects will follow.

by: glparker1952@gm...

11-17-2011 @ 2:34pm

Lessons from Reverend Michael J. Christiansen:

 

Sunday, November 13, 2011Does God Have Favorites?Today is the 58th day of Occupy Wall Street, my fifth time to occupy with faith.  Three worship services on Sunday is certainly enough prayer, praise and protest for one day.The Path Train from Hoboken delivered me to Christopher Street in the West Village which was an easy walk to the Church of the Village: A Progressive United Methodist Church.  “Bishop J” is senior pastor (who had set up several shalom zones when he was Bishop for New Jersey Annual Conference.  It was stewardship Sunday and the economic theme was “lend your heart, invest your soul, maximize your ROI.”  I loved how the worship team performed a Broadway tune—“I’m into Money” complete with tap dancing and showmanship.The gospel text was the Parable of the Talents and the Separation of the Sheep and Goats (Matt 25:14-30).  District Superintendent St. Clair Samuel preached a very fine radical stewardship message on God’s ownership and our stewardship of has been entrusted to our care.  “What we have is not ours,” the preacher said, quoting Psalm 21).  “God has rights and we have responsibilities….  The question is--are we faithful in service?  Do we hide or do we invest our time, talent and treasure? ... There will be a day of accountability….  We will be audited by the Almighty….  What did you do with what I gave you? …  To whom much is given, much is expected…  If we are faithful with what we have been given, large or small, God will someday say”  “Well done good and faithful servant!”  I learned from the sermon that Five Talents in Jesus’ day was equal to fifteen years of a laborer’s wages.  That would be over $300,000 in today’s currency.   Not all the servants were given an equal amount, but apparently only what they could handle. And they were held accountable for how they invested it.  Whether we have one, two or five talents, we are expected to invest it wisely and justly.  “Use it or lose it,”  the preacher said.Since I was heading to Occupy Wall Street after the service, I could not help but judge my neighbors—the big boy bankers and tight-fisted tycoons who seem to conspire to rig the system to keep the 1% permanently rich and the 99% struggling to make ends meet.  It is easy for me to condemn the politicians whose votes can be bought by lobbyists, major contributors, and special interest groups that fund and shape their campaigns, and even outright bribe.   The prophets Amos and Micah certainly judged those who “sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals—those who trample the head of the poor into the dust of the earth and turn aside the way of the afflicted" (Amos 2:6-7).  But then I remembered that I’m among the top 5% of the wealthiest people in the world, possessing silver and gold, shoes and sandals, homes and mortgages, a privileged job, and “all the cattle on a thousand hills” (at least metaphorically), compared to the 95% who have not.  Sure, I want to have my 401 (k) Plan invested in socially-responsible retirement funds, but I like my Chase Presidential Plus Card for elite access in boarding planes and enjoying Star Alliance Lounges.Okay, I don’t want to think about that right now;  Bishop J. wants me to offer a Table Blessing, Benediction, and invite folks to join us at 3:30pm for the OccupyFaith Service on Wall Street. My next stop was the Lamb’s Church of the Nazarene in Chinatown where Pastor Gabriel Salguero asked me to stop by on my way to the Financial District and speak to the college mission team they were hosting this weekend.  I arrived at 41 Rivington in time for the church offering and musical postlude.  When it was time to speak to the kids about Communities of Shalom, I shared by own journey from being a college student feeling called to urban ministry, working at the Lamb’s Church in Times Square in the 1970’s, and moving to San Francisco in the 1980’s to plant a church and start a mission for the poor of Haight Ashbury.  And how after decades of doing mercy ministry, relief work, charitable services, evangelism and discipleship for the poor, I finally understood the need for ministries of community organizing, community development, advocacy, doing justice, and peacemaking with the poor.  Mine was an evangelical journey from “Just As I Am” (without one plea) to “Justice I AM” (God calls me). I told the students about the six threads of SHALOM by which we re-weave the tattered fabric of communities with both obvious needs and hidden resources.  I shared the SHALOM acrostic of ShalomZone Training:  The S in Shalom is for systemic engagement, structural change and sustainable transformation.  The H in shalom is the focus on health, healing, harmony, wholeness—all that we mean by the big word shalom. The A in Shalom is for Asset Based Community Development (in contrast to Need Based Social Services). The L in Shalom is for Love of God, self and neighbor (and stranger).  The O in Shalom is for “organizing to beat the devil,” as John Wesley said.  And the M in Shalom is for multicultural, multifaith collaboration required to create a shalom zone in a particular community.   Seewww.communitiesofshalom.org Finally, I told them that God had favorites (the list includes: “the poor, maimed, the lame, the blind, the sick and imprisoned, the hungry and homeless, the orphan and widow in their distress; the sojourner and the uninsured); and that world history is a long struggle between the haves and the have-nots, the rich and the poor, the great and the small.  And in the struggle of survival of the fittest, God takes sides. And the side God takes is the side of the underdog, the poor, the marginalized, the oppressed, and the socially-disinherited.  In liberation theology we call this “God’s preferential option for the poor.”   I think it was a new concept to most of these college students.  But they listened respectfully and considered all that was said.  And they had their own thoughts and ideas about urban ministry and why they came to NYC to meet the poor.My time at the Lamb’s was up and it was time to get to Occupy Wall Street for the Multifaith Service.  Rev. David Best joined me for what was my third service of the day, and several faculty and students from Drew University (home base of Communities of Shalom) were in the park as well.Dr. Tracy West, Professor of Ethics at Drew, was one of the featured speakers. She lifted up the name of Mary, the Prophetess, who proclaimed truth and hope for the woman abused, the immigrant arrested, the working poor without a living wage.  For Mary was inspired and bold enough to proclaim: “My soul glorifies the Lordand my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.From now on all generations will call me blessed,for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.  His mercy extends to those who fear him, 
   from generation to generation.He has performed mighty deeds with his arm; 
   he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.He has brought down rulers from their thrones 
   but has lifted up the humble.He has filled the hungry with good thingsbut has sent the rich away empty. (Luke 1:46-53)Other leaders of faith communities shared their witness in shouts, prayers, songs, and silent meditation.  Afterward, four us--Rev. David Best (Former Shepherd of the Lamb’s Church and Founder of Towel and Basin Ministries), Dr. Tanya Bennett (Drew University Chaplain), and Harriet Olsen (Deputy General Secretary of the Women’s Division) and I--spent an hour walking through the densely occupied Zuccotti Park, talking to many interesting people about why they chose to be here now.  We all agreed to return on December 4 for OccupyAdvent—a service in the Park to be hosted and led by Communities of Shalom.   Join us! Also, check out Occupy Faith at: http://www.occupyfaithnyc.org/

by: Chura

11-17-2011 @ 2:58pm

I totally agree. I believe the churches ought to open their doors to the occupy crowd, not only on Thanksgiving, but every day of the week. The church ought to allow these folks to occupy their facilities, feed and clothe them daily, and provide whatever else they need as they continue the call for social justice. These folks should not be sleeping in tents out in the cold when heated church buildings remain unused nightly. Come on church, let's open our doors, our hearts, and our wallets to whatever these folks need!

by: pagrsm

11-17-2011 @ 3:01pm

St. Paul's in London is facing this same situation and two priests resigned over the handling of the Occupy group who settled on their steps.  St. Paul's is in the real City of London which is the financial district.  Maybe the Churches on Wall Street and other places would be a good place to start.  

by: revhczone

11-17-2011 @ 3:06pm

I have been a youth minister for over 30 years.The church needs to claim these children in our streets as our own children. God's children. We must give them sactuary. Today. Now is our time to be sanctuary. Or we will be be weighed in the balance .. and found wanting. Thank you Jim. I pray our pastors and elders and laity act swiftly. It is your continuum of the Cirle of Protection. And .. this will go a long way in asking, "whose church is this?"

Peace to You .. Michael Harrington www.occupyfaith.com

by: doug s

11-17-2011 @ 3:07pm

@ Rifle Did Jesus share his life with the priests or with the tax collectors and the ordinary people of his time ?

Did he eat with the leaders of the church or with the people of the street ?

It would seem your hatred blinds you to just who the occupy protesters are and what they are doing.

If you are serious about following in the footsteps of Jesus may I suggest you spend time in the streets talking to the ordinary people rather than spewing vitriol at them.

What would Jesus do ? show people kindness and compassion or insult and reject them because of how they look and where they come from ?

by: UMCRevMom

11-19-2011 @ 3:02pm
in reply to: doug s

AGREE TOTALLY! These 'occupiers' are rude, base without regard for ANYONE other then their DEMAND for a larger piece of the pie be GIVEN to them rather then EARN IT!

 

by: paul

11-22-2011 @ 3:39am
in reply to: UMCRevMom

The Occupy Wall Street movement is trying to bring greater accountability and fairness to our economy. Do you think Wall Streeters "earned" the billions in bonuses they received thanks to the taxpayer bailouts?

by: Ernest Hollaway

11-17-2011 @ 3:45pm

Jim's suggestion that churches provide sanctuary to the movement that is calling attention to a terrible wrong in our society -- one that was condemned in the Old Testament  and also by Jesus -- is a good one.

As a Baptist, I wonder how many of our present-day leaders will have the courage to respond to this idea? I pray that many will.

by: Sam Hamilton

11-17-2011 @ 4:02pm

We have certain rules at our house on Thanksgiving (these rules apply most other days too):

No illegal drugs

No loud drums

No Tofurkey

No groping of the women

You have to use the toilet (unless you're my 17-month old)

No Dallas Cowboys fans

If you can abide by these rules, you're welcome to join us!

Oh, and if you have a really big puppet you can store it in the coat closet.

by: Jennifer A. Nolan

11-17-2011 @ 8:32pm
in reply to: Sam Hamilton

Sam, you are a snob!

 

No Tofurky?  No Dallas Cowboys fans?  You have to use the toilet? (As if these people weren't using the proper facilities to start with!)

 

As noisy and rude as some of these Occupiers are made to look on TV, I'm sure many or most of them will know how to behave at somebody's church or family home.  They are educated, clear-headed people who have deliberately taken their living standards down-market as a part of their act of solidarity with the truly poor -- most of whom can also act sensible at houses of worship.   If some nearby church invites some of these wild cards over for the holidays, why don't you go down to that church and check out what's happening.  You might be surprised.

 

I may take umbrage at some proletarian behavior, but that has to do with not voting, not organizing, not staying tuned in to the news on crucial issues like any reasonable twelve-year-old.  I have never imagined that 99% of these people would use another's living room as their toilet or disrupt church on a major holiday.   They need lesson in civics, not basic self-care!

 

Lighten up.  I thought you were on Jim's side on these economic issues!

by: StillWitnessing

11-17-2011 @ 10:07pm
in reply to: Jennifer A. Nolan

I believe Sam was demonstrating a sense of humor.  Often in short supply in these parts. . . .

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:30pm
in reply to: StillWitnessing

What a negative, hurtful, uninformed, and unthoughtful "joke" to make then, and not funny in the slightest.

by: 22044

11-18-2011 @ 12:40pm
in reply to: versteckt

I thought it was funny.

by: Sam Hamilton

11-18-2011 @ 9:59am
in reply to: Jennifer A. Nolan

Jennifer,

I was joking.  I'm sure 99% of the protestors would behave like decent humans should they come over for a meal at my home.

But you're right, in some ways I am a snob.

Sam

by: Squeaky

11-18-2011 @ 12:09pm
in reply to: Sam Hamilton

I'm totally breaking radio silence to let you know I agree 100% with the ban on Cowboys fans.  I will also add Packers fans.  Other fans are fine with the possible exception of Yankees fans.  Ceiling fans and hand held fans are fine if it is warm and stuffy, but given it is late November, I don't expect them to show up.  Alluvial fans are right out, as I don't need my home inundated with sediment.  

by: Sam Hamilton

11-18-2011 @ 2:20pm
in reply to: Squeaky

Haha...  Alluvial fans, very good.  I don't mind Packers fans (but I'm not from Minnesota).  

by: sandjbelcher

11-17-2011 @ 5:14pm

This is what the church needs to do - it is clearly our calling at this time when the moral and spiritual issues of today cry out for what the Occupy movement is doing.  We should support them in every way the church can do so.  I hope this courageous and important message will reach the churches and inspire them to act NOW!

Thanks you, Jim Wallis!

by: mbaeconomics

11-17-2011 @ 6:02pm

Here's the problem Jim. You don't know supply and demand, the need for derivatives but the evil within them, what glass-stegall does, or frankly how bad occupy would be for the lower class. Frankly, we need a mandatory economics, both micro and macro class, at every high school. The system isn't broken toward the rich for the most part. The 99% pay roughly the taxes of medicare, medicaid, and social security. They are bankrupting our system. They weren't meant to do the job of the church. Medicare is scammed by HMO's all the time, case and point Chemed's Vitas, the largest healthcare system in the country. Some things shouldn't be privatized, yes that's true. So there is some corporate corruption, but Sarbaynes Oxly is doing a good job.

Bush spent less on the other areas of government as a percent of GDP than any president since FDR besides the second half of clinton. That's including the wars. The wars weren't costly. Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid are unsusstainable at their current rates. Increasing taxes will decrease jobs. Once again, supply demand. Go to your local college, take a business class. You can learn how you are simply wrong 

Lastly, derivatives are necessary insurance. Should speculators have to disclose every purchase? Yes. Should glass-stegall come back at least in part? Yes. But there's not a problem with the rich v. the poor. Unions need to be trustbusted as much if not more than Corporations. God never called for us to spend beyond our means and go into massive debt. The Ten Minas is about more than just talents, it's a finacial model. We are supposed to invest and grow money. We are supposed to do this without greed. Every able body should work. However, philathropy is a good goal.

Carl Lindner deserved the front page article on here when he died. He was the epitomy of a super rich man that lived to serve the poor. He grew his hundreds of millions but donated billions. He bought a baseball team to keep a city happy. He self-reported an ethics violation in chiquitta bananas. Capitalism has its downfalls, but the Occupy movement is not a solution. It's a problem. It's not Christian and never will be Christian. It's built on greed and false information. The people funding it are people who get rich off shorting derivatives. They are evil, greedy people. Soros is evil. Jim, I love you, but you are simply wrong. The poor would be worse off like Greece if we followed occupy.

Seriously Jim, stop writing on occupy until you take an economics class. Have both sides and both opinions. Supporting the poor when they are greedy is wrong. What occupy wants would hurt the lower class. I can guarentee that. As someone who has a 10 year plan to eventually live off interest and donate 100% of my money to the church and the poor, I can tell you that. I speak with the authority of someone who has studied the theory and knows that the only element that can change these models is people's perceptions or less competition abroad. However, eventually, people's perceptions would not be able to spur on new jobs due to competition abroad. So if China and India are nuked, God forbid, raising taxes could be okay. Otherwise, we should lower corporate and close loopholes.

by: Maani

11-17-2011 @ 6:49pm
in reply to: mbaeconomics

You are somewhat correct on some of your points, and mostly incorrect on others.  I haven't the time to cite all the corrections.  However, call me crazy, but I think I will go with Roubini, Krugman and Stiglitz (among others) - the last two being Nobel Prize winners in economics - over you, no matter what degree you have.  And all of them disagree with you on many, if not most, of your points, to varying degrees.


I don't need an economics course to tell me that the economic system in this country is broken.  That a combination of government deregulation and Wall Street greed (not the absurdly suggested greed of the poor...) caused the economic meltdown that is at the heart of the Occupy movement.  I don't need an economics or political course to tell me that Citizens United made the economics/politics nexus even stronger, and will cause even greater corruption of our electoral process than we have ever seen.  (And that's saying a lot!)  I do not need an economics course to tell me that sustained unemployment of 9% or more is a recipe for continued economic stagnation, if not further decline, or that this is not causing an increase in poverty and homelessness.


As for taxes, I am all for raising them - on everyone.  In fact, the majority of Americans are in FAVOR of tax increases across the board (though you would never know it from reading the mainstream media).  But raising taxes on the wealthiest first - and highest - is still fair, since, despite the "visible" tax rate that they pay (the "high" one they claim), in actuality they are paying a lower tax rate than they have in over three decades, if all the loopholes, deduction, write-offs and give-backs are counted in.


Peace.

by: xjm716

11-17-2011 @ 8:18pm
in reply to: Maani

Oh, the Nobel Prize as measuring tool.  Let's see...

 

Guantanamo Bay?  Still open.

War on Libya?  Check.

Soldiers to Uganda?  Check.

Marines to Australia?  Check.

Continued drone attacks in the ME and NE Africa?  Check.

Americans killed without due process?  Check.

 

Yep...well deserved.

 

 

by: Maani

11-17-2011 @ 10:55pm
in reply to: xjm716

Ignoring your sarcasm, you are mixing apples and oranges.  There is quite a difference between the Nobel Peace Prize - given (ostensibly) for work toward peace, however "concrete" that work is (or not) - and the Nobel Prize for things like economics, which are measurable and quantifiable, and require exceptional knowledge and expertise in a given field.


I also have a problem with the bestowal of the Peace Prize on Obama.  I have no such problem with Nobels for the sciences and economics.

by: be-reasonable

11-17-2011 @ 8:49pm

A better idea for Thanksgiving is to invite the hungry and the lonely--the family whose breadwinner has been laid off, the widow whose family is in another state. You might also consider inviting a foreign student who has never been in the home of an American. We have had students from Asia, Europe, Africa and South America, and end up being blessed by their presence--and years later still have a relationship with some of them who have returned to their homes.

by: Red Elder

11-17-2011 @ 9:12pm
in reply to: be-reasonable

You are much more in line with what I think Jesus would recommend than what Jim Wallis is trying to lead his followers into doing. I think social mercy might be more appropriate than social justice.

by: Conniejeanmarie

11-17-2011 @ 9:45pm
in reply to: Red Elder

Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day. Teach a man to fish, and you feed him for life. Social justice IS social mercy.

by: Red Elder

11-17-2011 @ 11:15pm
in reply to: Conniejeanmarie

Only if the man wants to learn, and makes the effort to fish, and doesn't expect the fish to just jump into his boat.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:07pm
in reply to: Red Elder

And thus you dismiss the unjust suffering of millions around the globe.

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:27pm
in reply to: paul

I get the impression that Red Elder would have you believe that all Occupiers are miscreants looking for a free hand-out and nothing more.

Instead of contributing constructively, he belittles. Is his dismissmal really that noteworthy, then?

by: Red Elder

11-18-2011 @ 9:48pm
in reply to: versteckt

Not all of them, versteckt, just the ones I read about, see videos of, and those I  see on tv.  Are you belittling me? I want change too.  No more federal government over-reach into the pockets of the 90% employed, no more government paybacks to party supporters through preferential treatment (Solyndra), no more holding back our economy and jobs with excessive regulation and killing of job sources like in the energy industry.  The fight should not be solely focused on a few overpaid executives on Wall Street.  It should also be focused on Washington DC and a federal government run amok.  They have to stop spending money they don't have.  Just like any sane family. 

by: versteckt

11-19-2011 @ 8:47am
in reply to: Red Elder

 

Not trying to belittle you, my apologies. And I agree with you on all points unequivocably. Many of the occupiers understand that as well, and that's what is so frustrating. The ones you read about and see videos of are the ones that they want you to see. I know it's called "Occupy Wall Street" and that banks are the focus, but people are very aware of the government side of things as well, and we have a lot of ideas starting to come out now on how to affect change in the system. Considering what we are up against -- corruption and control at literally every level of government -- this is going to be a very slow process during which the Tea Partiers that stand with us will not be letting us forget about the government. :-)

by: Red Elder

11-19-2011 @ 11:56am
in reply to: versteckt

10-4.  Let's get our country back to it's original design.  Have a great Thanksgiving.

by: scat

11-20-2011 @ 10:32pm
in reply to: Red Elder

The ones you read about, the ones you see on TV.   Nothing more  ?  You form your opinions based on this? You condemn people as druggies, thieves and thugs, based on what you read and see in the media?

What are you watching, what are you reading?  Check your sources.

Way back in the olden days -- the bad old '60's, I had occasion to witness civil rights and anti-war demonstrations.The media were there waiting to pounce on anything that might make the 6 PM news. Paddy wagon was there too -- just waiting for someone to get arrested. One day, things were so uneventful, but the police marched down the mall in their best flying wedge formation, riot gear and all, and the only miscreants they could find were a couple of middle-aged women trying to cross the mall before the police got closer.  And so there it was on the 6PM news, the police shoving a couple of ladies into the paddy wagon while they begged to know what was going on.  And this was at a time when most people in the media tried to be objective.

 

 

 

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by: Sam Hamilton

11-18-2011 @ 9:59am
in reply to: Jennifer A. Nolan

Jennifer,

I was joking.  I'm sure 99% of the protestors would behave like decent humans should they come over for a meal at my home.

But you're right, in some ways I am a snob.

Sam

by: scat

11-20-2011 @ 10:32pm
in reply to: Red Elder

The ones you read about, the ones you see on TV.   Nothing more  ?  You form your opinions based on this? You condemn people as druggies, thieves and thugs, based on what you read and see in the media?

What are you watching, what are you reading?  Check your sources.

Way back in the olden days -- the bad old '60's, I had occasion to witness civil rights and anti-war demonstrations.The media were there waiting to pounce on anything that might make the 6 PM news. Paddy wagon was there too -- just waiting for someone to get arrested. One day, things were so uneventful, but the police marched down the mall in their best flying wedge formation, riot gear and all, and the only miscreants they could find were a couple of middle-aged women trying to cross the mall before the police got closer.  And so there it was on the 6PM news, the police shoving a couple of ladies into the paddy wagon while they begged to know what was going on.  And this was at a time when most people in the media tried to be objective.

 

 

 

by: Chura

11-17-2011 @ 2:58pm

I totally agree. I believe the churches ought to open their doors to the occupy crowd, not only on Thanksgiving, but every day of the week. The church ought to allow these folks to occupy their facilities, feed and clothe them daily, and provide whatever else they need as they continue the call for social justice. These folks should not be sleeping in tents out in the cold when heated church buildings remain unused nightly. Come on church, let's open our doors, our hearts, and our wallets to whatever these folks need!

by: pagrsm

11-17-2011 @ 3:01pm

St. Paul's in London is facing this same situation and two priests resigned over the handling of the Occupy group who settled on their steps.  St. Paul's is in the real City of London which is the financial district.  Maybe the Churches on Wall Street and other places would be a good place to start.  

by: Ernest Hollaway

11-17-2011 @ 3:45pm

Jim's suggestion that churches provide sanctuary to the movement that is calling attention to a terrible wrong in our society -- one that was condemned in the Old Testament  and also by Jesus -- is a good one.

As a Baptist, I wonder how many of our present-day leaders will have the courage to respond to this idea? I pray that many will.

by: be-reasonable

11-17-2011 @ 8:49pm

A better idea for Thanksgiving is to invite the hungry and the lonely--the family whose breadwinner has been laid off, the widow whose family is in another state. You might also consider inviting a foreign student who has never been in the home of an American. We have had students from Asia, Europe, Africa and South America, and end up being blessed by their presence--and years later still have a relationship with some of them who have returned to their homes.

by: Red Elder

11-17-2011 @ 8:56pm
in reply to: UMCRevMom

You are correct. These are misguided souls. Violence, open sex, drugs and lawlessness is nothing to honor.

by: UMCRevMom

11-18-2011 @ 7:47am

I totally agree with mbaeconomics. Pres GW Bush suggested to enable the government to support "faith base organizations"that reach out to the various ministries of:  the poor, the homeless, the addicted.

Where was the church, these 'occupiers' then talking the talk but not walking the walk???  Many folks were so steeped in their liberal political agenda they refused to be part of a "compassionate conservative" answer!

How very sad.

by: kansasmennonite

11-18-2011 @ 8:00am
in reply to: SLMeyer

You're right. Half of the evangelical church family (might be higher) support the 1 percent to death's end. They are part of the problem, not the solution.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:07pm
in reply to: Red Elder

And thus you dismiss the unjust suffering of millions around the globe.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:16pm
in reply to: Sam Hamilton

OWSers should be invited into and welcomed in churches because they are standing up to injustice.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:17pm

I think this is a great idea, Jim! More than that, I believe it is an inspired one.

Also, I believe it is probably time to put some bishops on the spot. We need to ask them: just where do you stand?

by: UMCRevMom

11-19-2011 @ 3:02pm
in reply to: doug s

AGREE TOTALLY! These 'occupiers' are rude, base without regard for ANYONE other then their DEMAND for a larger piece of the pie be GIVEN to them rather then EARN IT!

 

by: recce1

11-21-2011 @ 2:24am
in reply to: Maani

Where is the aggression, censure, arrogance, impatience, self-centeredness, injustice and propaganda? Is it in calling provable widespread criminal and immoral conduct criminal and immoral? Do you find it unchristian to call sin sin?

Evidently you don't follow the Christ of the New Testament.

by: paul

11-22-2011 @ 3:33am
in reply to: recce1

Really? Why might you think I would favor atheistic communism? Or that I would defend socialism? As if those are the only alternatives to unregulated global finance capitalism. I think too many these days prefer atheistic Randian individualism. I think we need to honor and protect the common good.

Too many reporters are being attacked by police, from what I am seeing and hearing. " "How many have said they want a free meal ticket in life or that the government should confiscate the wealth of the productive?" None that I am aware of. Do you have a different answer?

by: paul

11-22-2011 @ 3:39am
in reply to: UMCRevMom

The Occupy Wall Street movement is trying to bring greater accountability and fairness to our economy. Do you think Wall Streeters "earned" the billions in bonuses they received thanks to the taxpayer bailouts?

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by: OccupyCincinnati

12-10-2011 @ 8:11pm
in reply to: UMCRevMom

Did you forget, Other Peoples Lives?


(filmed in East Germany)

by: eleanorstoneham...

11-17-2011 @ 2:25pm

I went to the Occupy London tent city at St Pauls to talk to the protestors and was struck by what they stand for and how well organised and thoughtful the community was. There was plenty of sound debate, peace and love - and the point they make is very valid - in London they had plenty of public support - and they are in no way blocking visitors to St Pauls either. Thankyou for an excellent blog.As for repentance I think we should look for the planks in our own eyes first.

by: eleanorstoneham...

11-17-2011 @ 2:26pm
in reply to: UMCRevMom

I went to the Occupy London tent city at St Pauls to talk to the protestors and was struck by what they stand for and how well organised and thoughtful the community was. There was plenty of sound debate, peace and love - and the point they make is very valid - in London they had plenty of public support - and they are in no way blocking visitors to St Pauls either. Thankyou for an excellent blog.As for repentance I think we should look for the planks in our own eyes first.

by: surferbob68

11-17-2011 @ 2:34pm

I believe that we not only should invite adherents of the Occupy movement to church but that we should also make a vigorous effort to witness to them.
From interviews I have seen on TV, it seems that the adherents of this movement are putting their trust in men and not in the Lord.
Although the ideology of the Occupy movement is not fixed at this date, I believe that the general direction of the movement can be a good thing for this country.
I am concerned that if this movement becomes violent, many undesireable effects will follow.

by: glparker1952@gm...

11-17-2011 @ 2:34pm

Lessons from Reverend Michael J. Christiansen:

 

Sunday, November 13, 2011Does God Have Favorites?Today is the 58th day of Occupy Wall Street, my fifth time to occupy with faith.  Three worship services on Sunday is certainly enough prayer, praise and protest for one day.The Path Train from Hoboken delivered me to Christopher Street in the West Village which was an easy walk to the Church of the Village: A Progressive United Methodist Church.  “Bishop J” is senior pastor (who had set up several shalom zones when he was Bishop for New Jersey Annual Conference.  It was stewardship Sunday and the economic theme was “lend your heart, invest your soul, maximize your ROI.”  I loved how the worship team performed a Broadway tune—“I’m into Money” complete with tap dancing and showmanship.The gospel text was the Parable of the Talents and the Separation of the Sheep and Goats (Matt 25:14-30).  District Superintendent St. Clair Samuel preached a very fine radical stewardship message on God’s ownership and our stewardship of has been entrusted to our care.  “What we have is not ours,” the preacher said, quoting Psalm 21).  “God has rights and we have responsibilities….  The question is--are we faithful in service?  Do we hide or do we invest our time, talent and treasure? ... There will be a day of accountability….  We will be audited by the Almighty….  What did you do with what I gave you? …  To whom much is given, much is expected…  If we are faithful with what we have been given, large or small, God will someday say”  “Well done good and faithful servant!”  I learned from the sermon that Five Talents in Jesus’ day was equal to fifteen years of a laborer’s wages.  That would be over $300,000 in today’s currency.   Not all the servants were given an equal amount, but apparently only what they could handle. And they were held accountable for how they invested it.  Whether we have one, two or five talents, we are expected to invest it wisely and justly.  “Use it or lose it,”  the preacher said.Since I was heading to Occupy Wall Street after the service, I could not help but judge my neighbors—the big boy bankers and tight-fisted tycoons who seem to conspire to rig the system to keep the 1% permanently rich and the 99% struggling to make ends meet.  It is easy for me to condemn the politicians whose votes can be bought by lobbyists, major contributors, and special interest groups that fund and shape their campaigns, and even outright bribe.   The prophets Amos and Micah certainly judged those who “sell the righteous for silver, and the needy for a pair of sandals—those who trample the head of the poor into the dust of the earth and turn aside the way of the afflicted" (Amos 2:6-7).  But then I remembered that I’m among the top 5% of the wealthiest people in the world, possessing silver and gold, shoes and sandals, homes and mortgages, a privileged job, and “all the cattle on a thousand hills” (at least metaphorically), compared to the 95% who have not.  Sure, I want to have my 401 (k) Plan invested in socially-responsible retirement funds, but I like my Chase Presidential Plus Card for elite access in boarding planes and enjoying Star Alliance Lounges.Okay, I don’t want to think about that right now;  Bishop J. wants me to offer a Table Blessing, Benediction, and invite folks to join us at 3:30pm for the OccupyFaith Service on Wall Street. My next stop was the Lamb’s Church of the Nazarene in Chinatown where Pastor Gabriel Salguero asked me to stop by on my way to the Financial District and speak to the college mission team they were hosting this weekend.  I arrived at 41 Rivington in time for the church offering and musical postlude.  When it was time to speak to the kids about Communities of Shalom, I shared by own journey from being a college student feeling called to urban ministry, working at the Lamb’s Church in Times Square in the 1970’s, and moving to San Francisco in the 1980’s to plant a church and start a mission for the poor of Haight Ashbury.  And how after decades of doing mercy ministry, relief work, charitable services, evangelism and discipleship for the poor, I finally understood the need for ministries of community organizing, community development, advocacy, doing justice, and peacemaking with the poor.  Mine was an evangelical journey from “Just As I Am” (without one plea) to “Justice I AM” (God calls me). I told the students about the six threads of SHALOM by which we re-weave the tattered fabric of communities with both obvious needs and hidden resources.  I shared the SHALOM acrostic of ShalomZone Training:  The S in Shalom is for systemic engagement, structural change and sustainable transformation.  The H in shalom is the focus on health, healing, harmony, wholeness—all that we mean by the big word shalom. The A in Shalom is for Asset Based Community Development (in contrast to Need Based Social Services). The L in Shalom is for Love of God, self and neighbor (and stranger).  The O in Shalom is for “organizing to beat the devil,” as John Wesley said.  And the M in Shalom is for multicultural, multifaith collaboration required to create a shalom zone in a particular community.   Seewww.communitiesofshalom.org Finally, I told them that God had favorites (the list includes: “the poor, maimed, the lame, the blind, the sick and imprisoned, the hungry and homeless, the orphan and widow in their distress; the sojourner and the uninsured); and that world history is a long struggle between the haves and the have-nots, the rich and the poor, the great and the small.  And in the struggle of survival of the fittest, God takes sides. And the side God takes is the side of the underdog, the poor, the marginalized, the oppressed, and the socially-disinherited.  In liberation theology we call this “God’s preferential option for the poor.”   I think it was a new concept to most of these college students.  But they listened respectfully and considered all that was said.  And they had their own thoughts and ideas about urban ministry and why they came to NYC to meet the poor.My time at the Lamb’s was up and it was time to get to Occupy Wall Street for the Multifaith Service.  Rev. David Best joined me for what was my third service of the day, and several faculty and students from Drew University (home base of Communities of Shalom) were in the park as well.Dr. Tracy West, Professor of Ethics at Drew, was one of the featured speakers. She lifted up the name of Mary, the Prophetess, who proclaimed truth and hope for the woman abused, the immigrant arrested, the working poor without a living wage.  For Mary was inspired and bold enough to proclaim: “My soul glorifies the Lordand my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,for he has been mindful of the humble state of his servant.From now on all generations will call me blessed,for the Mighty One has done great things for me—holy is his name.  His mercy extends to those who fear him, 
   from generation to generation.He has performed mighty deeds with his arm; 
   he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.He has brought down rulers from their thrones 
   but has lifted up the humble.He has filled the hungry with good thingsbut has sent the rich away empty. (Luke 1:46-53)Other leaders of faith communities shared their witness in shouts, prayers, songs, and silent meditation.  Afterward, four us--Rev. David Best (Former Shepherd of the Lamb’s Church and Founder of Towel and Basin Ministries), Dr. Tanya Bennett (Drew University Chaplain), and Harriet Olsen (Deputy General Secretary of the Women’s Division) and I--spent an hour walking through the densely occupied Zuccotti Park, talking to many interesting people about why they chose to be here now.  We all agreed to return on December 4 for OccupyAdvent—a service in the Park to be hosted and led by Communities of Shalom.   Join us! Also, check out Occupy Faith at: http://www.occupyfaithnyc.org/

by: pagrsm

11-17-2011 @ 3:04pm
in reply to: eleanorstoneham...

I too was in London and witnessed this event.  The priests of St. Paul's and the Archbishop  of Canterbury and the Bishop of London all have had their different responses but it was a good and orderly debate.

Very interesting..  How about Trinity Church on Wall Street?

by: revhczone

11-17-2011 @ 3:06pm

I have been a youth minister for over 30 years.The church needs to claim these children in our streets as our own children. God's children. We must give them sactuary. Today. Now is our time to be sanctuary. Or we will be be weighed in the balance .. and found wanting. Thank you Jim. I pray our pastors and elders and laity act swiftly. It is your continuum of the Cirle of Protection. And .. this will go a long way in asking, "whose church is this?"

Peace to You .. Michael Harrington www.occupyfaith.com

by: doug s

11-17-2011 @ 3:07pm

@ Rifle Did Jesus share his life with the priests or with the tax collectors and the ordinary people of his time ?

Did he eat with the leaders of the church or with the people of the street ?

It would seem your hatred blinds you to just who the occupy protesters are and what they are doing.

If you are serious about following in the footsteps of Jesus may I suggest you spend time in the streets talking to the ordinary people rather than spewing vitriol at them.

What would Jesus do ? show people kindness and compassion or insult and reject them because of how they look and where they come from ?

by: Sam Hamilton

11-17-2011 @ 4:02pm

We have certain rules at our house on Thanksgiving (these rules apply most other days too):

No illegal drugs

No loud drums

No Tofurkey

No groping of the women

You have to use the toilet (unless you're my 17-month old)

No Dallas Cowboys fans

If you can abide by these rules, you're welcome to join us!

Oh, and if you have a really big puppet you can store it in the coat closet.

by: sandjbelcher

11-17-2011 @ 5:14pm

This is what the church needs to do - it is clearly our calling at this time when the moral and spiritual issues of today cry out for what the Occupy movement is doing.  We should support them in every way the church can do so.  I hope this courageous and important message will reach the churches and inspire them to act NOW!

Thanks you, Jim Wallis!

by: mbaeconomics

11-17-2011 @ 6:02pm

Here's the problem Jim. You don't know supply and demand, the need for derivatives but the evil within them, what glass-stegall does, or frankly how bad occupy would be for the lower class. Frankly, we need a mandatory economics, both micro and macro class, at every high school. The system isn't broken toward the rich for the most part. The 99% pay roughly the taxes of medicare, medicaid, and social security. They are bankrupting our system. They weren't meant to do the job of the church. Medicare is scammed by HMO's all the time, case and point Chemed's Vitas, the largest healthcare system in the country. Some things shouldn't be privatized, yes that's true. So there is some corporate corruption, but Sarbaynes Oxly is doing a good job.

Bush spent less on the other areas of government as a percent of GDP than any president since FDR besides the second half of clinton. That's including the wars. The wars weren't costly. Medicare, Social Security, and Medicaid are unsusstainable at their current rates. Increasing taxes will decrease jobs. Once again, supply demand. Go to your local college, take a business class. You can learn how you are simply wrong 

Lastly, derivatives are necessary insurance. Should speculators have to disclose every purchase? Yes. Should glass-stegall come back at least in part? Yes. But there's not a problem with the rich v. the poor. Unions need to be trustbusted as much if not more than Corporations. God never called for us to spend beyond our means and go into massive debt. The Ten Minas is about more than just talents, it's a finacial model. We are supposed to invest and grow money. We are supposed to do this without greed. Every able body should work. However, philathropy is a good goal.

Carl Lindner deserved the front page article on here when he died. He was the epitomy of a super rich man that lived to serve the poor. He grew his hundreds of millions but donated billions. He bought a baseball team to keep a city happy. He self-reported an ethics violation in chiquitta bananas. Capitalism has its downfalls, but the Occupy movement is not a solution. It's a problem. It's not Christian and never will be Christian. It's built on greed and false information. The people funding it are people who get rich off shorting derivatives. They are evil, greedy people. Soros is evil. Jim, I love you, but you are simply wrong. The poor would be worse off like Greece if we followed occupy.

Seriously Jim, stop writing on occupy until you take an economics class. Have both sides and both opinions. Supporting the poor when they are greedy is wrong. What occupy wants would hurt the lower class. I can guarentee that. As someone who has a 10 year plan to eventually live off interest and donate 100% of my money to the church and the poor, I can tell you that. I speak with the authority of someone who has studied the theory and knows that the only element that can change these models is people's perceptions or less competition abroad. However, eventually, people's perceptions would not be able to spur on new jobs due to competition abroad. So if China and India are nuked, God forbid, raising taxes could be okay. Otherwise, we should lower corporate and close loopholes.

by: Maani

11-17-2011 @ 6:49pm
in reply to: mbaeconomics

You are somewhat correct on some of your points, and mostly incorrect on others.  I haven't the time to cite all the corrections.  However, call me crazy, but I think I will go with Roubini, Krugman and Stiglitz (among others) - the last two being Nobel Prize winners in economics - over you, no matter what degree you have.  And all of them disagree with you on many, if not most, of your points, to varying degrees.


I don't need an economics course to tell me that the economic system in this country is broken.  That a combination of government deregulation and Wall Street greed (not the absurdly suggested greed of the poor...) caused the economic meltdown that is at the heart of the Occupy movement.  I don't need an economics or political course to tell me that Citizens United made the economics/politics nexus even stronger, and will cause even greater corruption of our electoral process than we have ever seen.  (And that's saying a lot!)  I do not need an economics course to tell me that sustained unemployment of 9% or more is a recipe for continued economic stagnation, if not further decline, or that this is not causing an increase in poverty and homelessness.


As for taxes, I am all for raising them - on everyone.  In fact, the majority of Americans are in FAVOR of tax increases across the board (though you would never know it from reading the mainstream media).  But raising taxes on the wealthiest first - and highest - is still fair, since, despite the "visible" tax rate that they pay (the "high" one they claim), in actuality they are paying a lower tax rate than they have in over three decades, if all the loopholes, deduction, write-offs and give-backs are counted in.


Peace.

by: Jennifer A. Nolan

11-17-2011 @ 8:32pm
in reply to: Sam Hamilton

Sam, you are a snob!

 

No Tofurky?  No Dallas Cowboys fans?  You have to use the toilet? (As if these people weren't using the proper facilities to start with!)

 

As noisy and rude as some of these Occupiers are made to look on TV, I'm sure many or most of them will know how to behave at somebody's church or family home.  They are educated, clear-headed people who have deliberately taken their living standards down-market as a part of their act of solidarity with the truly poor -- most of whom can also act sensible at houses of worship.   If some nearby church invites some of these wild cards over for the holidays, why don't you go down to that church and check out what's happening.  You might be surprised.

 

I may take umbrage at some proletarian behavior, but that has to do with not voting, not organizing, not staying tuned in to the news on crucial issues like any reasonable twelve-year-old.  I have never imagined that 99% of these people would use another's living room as their toilet or disrupt church on a major holiday.   They need lesson in civics, not basic self-care!

 

Lighten up.  I thought you were on Jim's side on these economic issues!

by: Conniejeanmarie

11-17-2011 @ 9:44pm

The prayer is very much needed, Jim Wallis. It is the spark that will light the fire. You are in the position to provide the spark. Will you write it?

by: CherokeeStar

11-17-2011 @ 9:47pm
in reply to: Rifle

I'm new to this blog, but I made a point of reading the rules before registering and adding my comments.  "Rifle" seems to have completely disregarded these two rules:

I will express my disagreements with other community members' ideas without insulting, mocking, or slandering them personally. (Matthew 5:22)

I will not exaggerate others' beliefs nor make unfounded prejudicial assumptions based on labels, categories, or stereotypes. I will always extend the benefit of the doubt. (Ephesians 4:29)

 

From everything I've read, it appears to me that the people guilty of the bad behvior that Rifle references are in the minority among protesters, and frankly, I'm enough of a skeptic to wonder whether many of those behaving badly, including those guilty of violence, have been paid by opponents of the protests, perhaps by rich corporate interests or even by well-funded conservative political action groups (Dick Armey's FreedomWorks and their fake grassroots movements come to mind).  The 1% have a long history of using dishonorable tactics to push their agenda.

 

 

by: StillWitnessing

11-17-2011 @ 10:05pm

 

OWS and the Tea Party are correct that something is wrong.   Jim is assuming it’s up to the government to fix it. But  Jesus tells us the problem is us, all of us, not the Republicans in Washington.  It will take a lot more than raising taxes to solve our problems, and higher taxes and more regulations might mean even more jobs being sent to countries where it is simpler to do business.  I’m not sure liberals in OWS or at Sojourners are really open minded enough to discuss such big picture questions.

And, yes, Bloomberg is an elitist, trying force his cultural values on ordinary Americans.

by: StillWitnessing

11-17-2011 @ 10:07pm
in reply to: Jennifer A. Nolan

I believe Sam was demonstrating a sense of humor.  Often in short supply in these parts. . . .

by: Red Elder

11-17-2011 @ 11:15pm
in reply to: Conniejeanmarie

Only if the man wants to learn, and makes the effort to fish, and doesn't expect the fish to just jump into his boat.

by: Red Elder

11-17-2011 @ 11:18pm
in reply to: StillWitnessing

Government is not the answer.

by: SLMeyer

11-18-2011 @ 12:35am

Whatever happened to the "LIKE" button that one could click to give positive feedback to people who make sense? IMO, Red Elder and mbaeconomics would be in the lead on this particular blog should it still be available.

As for me personally, I can think of no better way to divide a congregation than to invite the Occupy people into your church. Surely close to half (and probably more) of a normal church's members are not big fans of the Occupy movement, and to use these people's funds to pay the cost of opening their churches to support a political cause would have these members leaving in large numbers. It ain't gonna happen.

by: eleanorstoneham...

11-18-2011 @ 8:09am
in reply to: CherokeeStar

Well said CherokeeStar. I wandered amongst the tents in London and spoke to many of the protestors. They were all intelligent and serious young (and not so young sometimes) men and women who feel they have a serious point to make - as indeed they do. There were educated discussions going on in the Tent City University, plenty of good literature to read, or borrow at the Tent City University Library  (I donated my own book - one chapter hugely relevant to their cause) and saw only courtesy and peace. The site was clean, well ordered and peaceful (with plenty of portaloos and rubbish skips) and attracting much support and interest from the public. It is very sad that it has divided clergy in St Pauls, and I am even sadder to see the violence in the evictions in Manhattan - although it seems the Manhattan park site may not have been so well organised?

by: Sam Hamilton

11-18-2011 @ 10:18am
in reply to: SLMeyer

Yeah, I’m ambivalent about this suggestion to invite OWSers into our churches and homes for Thanksgiving.  Why OWSers in particular?  Christians and their churches have for decades been inviting people without homes or away from their homes for the holidays into their homes and churches.  This is a common act of mercy and a subtle tool of evangelism.  This isn’t an original idea.

There seems to be this impression that the vast majority of OWSers are homeless, which I don’t think should be a given.  I’d guess the vast majority have homes; as one commenter noted, they’ve chosen to live on the streets as a form of protest in solidarity with the poor.   I’m all for inviting homeless OWSers into our homes and churches, but we should do so because they might have nowhere else to go, not because they’re OWSers.  They should be welcome just like anyone else should be.  I guess I feel like Christians should be inviting all sorts of people into our homes and churches on a regular basis.  I’m not sure why OWSers deserve a special invite as if others are less worthy of an invite.  I guess I just don’t get it.  I’d love for my church to host a community-wide Thanksgiving dinner for anyone and everyone!  We regularly have hundreds of homeless share a meal at our church every Sunday…any OWSer who wants to come is welcome.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 11:57am
in reply to: UMCRevMom

Repentence for showing solidarity with the poor? For courageously calling attention to an unjust economy? For daring to want to call Wall Street to account? For refusing to worship the false idol of the unfettered market?

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:03pm
in reply to: eleanorstoneham...

The eviction in New York wasn't just violent, but it was needlessly destructive. Most of the books were destroyed, laptops were smashed, and I sure some people lost years of artwork and probably personal diaries and journals as well.

by: Squeaky

11-18-2011 @ 12:09pm
in reply to: Sam Hamilton

I'm totally breaking radio silence to let you know I agree 100% with the ban on Cowboys fans.  I will also add Packers fans.  Other fans are fine with the possible exception of Yankees fans.  Ceiling fans and hand held fans are fine if it is warm and stuffy, but given it is late November, I don't expect them to show up.  Alluvial fans are right out, as I don't need my home inundated with sediment.  

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:09pm
in reply to: Red Elder

Government is certainly part of the answer -- always has been and always will be.

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:13pm
in reply to: coachS

The "immorality, drugs, and lawlessness" straw man is growing old. Just because a few are doing it doesn't mean everyone is.

By your logic, that makes all Christians bad because of Westboro Baptist Church.

Yawn.

by: paul

11-18-2011 @ 12:18pm
in reply to: coachS

Rev. Wallis is not advocating anything immoral.

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:19pm
in reply to: Sam Hamilton

Can't speak for everyone but I'm guessing that if an OWSer had a home, that is where they would be spending their holidays. I got the distinct impression that this was a call to help those who need it.

And I'm confused. "Christians and their churches have for decades been inviting people without homes or away from their homes for the holidays into their homes and churches.  This is a common act of mercy and a subtle tool of evangelism.  This isn’t an original idea."

You then go on to say "They should be welcome just like anyone else should be.  I guess I feel like Christians should be inviting all sorts of people into our homes and churches on a regular basis.  I’m not sure why OWSers deserve a special invite as if others are less worthy of an invite."

If it's such a common idea and happens so frequently, why is it such a big deal that OWSers have the offer extended to them as well? Are you hesitent based simply on the fact that "OWS" was mentioned specifically? 

What if someone wanted to start a drive to "Help feed the poor and homeless in Harlem on Thanksgiving", would you still have a problem with a specific group being named?

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:20pm
in reply to: paul

To say that government is not the answer is sticking your head in the proverbial sand.

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:24pm
in reply to: StillWitnessing

"I’m not sure liberals in OWS or at Sojourners are really open minded enough to discuss such big picture questions."

You have just shown us exactly how open minded you yourself are.

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:27pm
in reply to: paul

I get the impression that Red Elder would have you believe that all Occupiers are miscreants looking for a free hand-out and nothing more.

Instead of contributing constructively, he belittles. Is his dismissmal really that noteworthy, then?

by: versteckt

11-18-2011 @ 12:30pm
in reply to: StillWitnessing

What a negative, hurtful, uninformed, and unthoughtful "joke" to make then, and not funny in the slightest.